No more Frock Watch Mia, please

Yes!
I had a similar 'ah-ha' moment to that passage in Screw Inner Beauty and a similar reaction to Freedman's 'Frockwatch'. I really do feel that I'm much kinder to myself now that I actively avoid any snark about other women, even in my head. It's really essential to think about where those kinds of criticisms are coming from and who they serve. Freedman also calls herself a feminist, and yet she's very happy to participate in tearing down other women. She also advocates for a very limited view of acceptable femininity and I can't see how that is even remotely feminist. Her brand of body image advocacy really needs an overhaul, because at present it's not benefiting the wider community at all in my opinion.

I'm no statistician but I'm pretty sure her brand of feminism excludes 80% of people, and that ain't feminism.

Mia, you've earned one of my super serious frowny faces!
>:(

This is something one of my friends does, and it breaks my heart. She is constantly judging others, and not in a 'I would never wear that' way, either. In a 'that dress is socially unacceptable, and you are a horrible person for leaving the house in it, and ought to be left on a desert island' way. It's distressing, and it's also distressing because it obviously comes from a place of self hate. And of course she then assumes that everyone is saying those things about HER. And it makes her miserable.

Of course I catch myself judging other's appearance all the time. And when I do, I make a point of looking at that person and finding five things I love about how they look. Ok, I think the colours on that dress are a bit unfortunate. But they are making that woman happy, and that makes her beautiful. And I might have started by judging her hairstyle, but look how lovely her eyes are! And so on. Once I've been doing that for a while, I find that when I look in the mirror, those are the first thigns I see about ME. I see my smile and my shining eyes and not whatever bits i'm not liking that day.

Plus, it just makes the universe a nicer place to live it.

Great post Natalie- and some more great reasons for quitting the judging of other women! I quoted you in a very big discussion about this issue here: http://www.sharnanigans.com/2010/05/blogging-wi…
The post was born out of women who spouted about blogging without makeup turning around the very next week and writing a bitchy post and comments about the kind of pants Terri Irwin chooses to wear. I think you will see from the some of the comments that we have a long way to go but the tide is turning. I have already started.

Mia Freedman does my head in. I was ranting about a similar issue relating to her last night. It annoys me that she gets held up as a body image expert when she doesn't seem to think about it very deeply and is never self reflective until she gets told off repeatedly.

I just want to chime in here and agree with you, that it's often knee-jerk when we do this in our heads and I'm not perfect, I still do it too sometimes, and I'd hate to think my comment below was somehow implying that's not the case. Anyway, I really love your positive thinking strategy there, of finding what IS to love. It's good for the soul, I agree.

And even upon self reflection never actually addresses why she was criticised. SIGH.

Sharni linked to that post here a while ago, and I mustn't have read all the comments, or more took place after I visited, because there is a whole world of fail thriving in there!

I love how those accused of being critical of women are deflecting blame by accusing Sharni of being critical. Yo, it's not the same thing, own your hurtful comments!

Yes they attacked her but she didn't resort to bitchiness. Point is we have a culture of this sort of thing and we are all guilty of maintaining it implicitly and explicitly-own it and vow to stop it yourself. I had never thought of all the personal benefits of that-as you have posted here. Thanks.

I think most of us have been guilty of snarking other women at times and snarky blogs and comments online amplify that – suddenly it's a competition as to who can be the meanest, the most sarcastic.

I made a decision in my early twenties to stop comparing myself to other women, because I came to the huge realisation that there were parts of my body I couldn't change e.g. my bone structure, my height, my hips, my skin tone. I was immediately happier. I say it's a huge realisation because it's so obvious yet so many of us can't rationalise it. I would catch myself out and call myself on it and eventually, with a lot of practice, I stopped doing it 99% of the time.

I'm interested in how Mia Freedman will justify her Frock Watch feature. In the mix of her blog a lot of it looks like a typical celeb mag – the very magazines she now admits contribute to women's unhealthy body images. I think these features probably get her a lot of hits.

I don't buy in to Mia's brand of feminism but she is entitled to it. I also don't believe she represents ME (or a lot of women) as a positive body image advocate – her previous behaviours and words aren't inclusive enough. The kind of body positivity Mia advocates (especially through her work with the fashion industry and media) is that it's okay to be a plus size, if that plus size stops at size 16. I'm a size 18 and I've been bigger. Body positivity needs to include every one no matter their size or looks or how they dress.

I think we're all at different stages of body positivity (I have a long way to go), Mia included. I accept that and the reason Mia needs calling out on it is because of her position with the National Body Image Advisory Group. We ALL have a lot of work to do, and hopefully Mia will focus on examining her own behaviours and not on being “attacked” or criticised.

I am invested in this because I believe that Mia's position with the National Body Image Advisory Group could be an influential and positive one – but she has some catching up and work to do. I want to see her get there.

Fantastic post. Thank you so much. I completely agree that to get caught up in 'snark' is not only detrimental to others, but to yourself. I have a very young daughter and I am very conscious of how I speak of others around her and also about how me and my girlfriends speak about ourselves. I recently saw Naomi Wolf speak and it was interesting to hear about her discussion on how we (women) compare ourselves or try to obtain to a particular image of beauty and how dangerous and unproductive it can be. But you are right, in that it is also about putting a stop to that trap of JUDGING other women about how they look and therefore judging ourselves. It is exhausting and unnecessary. To be honest, I even found myself doing it (judging,not out loud) at the Naomi Wolf lecture! I hadn't thought about Frock Watch as you have in this post before as more than a bit of fluffy fun. But you are right. It is much more than that and indeed should go. Thanks again.

good on you for taking this stand. I don't know what all the hype is about her blog really. It seems to be more of a reflection of her, above anything else.

For real, your last two paragraphs make a point that I don't think I made effectively enough. As a person with an influential position and a lot of followers, Ms Freedman must understand that she has to answer to this kind of critique.

Wow, I'm totally envious that you saw Naomi Wolf speak right now! It's amazing though when we can reach a place in self awareness when we are completely conscious of what we are saying and doing, and can evaluate whether or not they are helpful. It's also important to understand that being critiqued, whether by yourself or others, does not mean you're a bad person. It just means you've got to adjust your thinking.

I’m not sure what was more frustrating with that whole gainers post issue and Mia Freedman – her absolute inability to understand the issues and what had gone wrong on her blog or the way she managed to turn the entire incident into something that happened to HER, that she was somehow the victim?

She created a nasty environment and then allowed many hateful comments about gainers and fat people in general to remain on the blog. She set the tone with the original post then sneakily changed the text when it started to get really unpleasant. When it all went pear shaped (no pun intended) she repeatedly tweeted and posted about how devastated she was, crying and feeling heartbroken. I wonder if she ever thinks about the people that feel the same way after they have been ripped to pieces by her commenters on there?

OMG it was utterly pathetic. Then all the Mia Cheer Squad got on there and started ripping the people who complained about the post to pieces!

Frock Watch along with other regular posts about WAGS and celebrities frequently become bitch-fests and women are judged in the post appallingly nasty manner.

I just shake my head in disbelief that the likes of Mia Freedman and Kate Ellis (she of the leather dress and killer heels in Grazia) represent the National Body Image Advisory Group.

You've pretty much hit the nail on the head Abby.

I'm not sure you could quite grasp how much I'm loving your posts on fashion-snark and body image. I'm loving them more than my secret fantasy of watching Johnny Depp make out with a unicorn. You're just THAT good. So: thanks.

I also must echo your sentiments that cutting out the snark and body-shaming (however internal or sneaky or whatever) is extremely personally liberating (not to mention you are no longer being a perpetrator on, you know, EVERY other woman out there). My life changed too when I stopped doing that, in more ways that I will enumerate here. I hope this continues to catch on.

I want to steal your fantasy of watching Johnny Depp make out with a unicorn. If the world were fair, this dream would come true.

Scanning the room for people fatter or uglier than you is a seriously immature way of dealing with insecurity – by finding someone you perceive as 'lesser', you are automatically elevated. I know, because I have been guilty of it; it pretty much sums up my relationship with my body in high school. The 'self esteem' it creates is artificial, superficial and ultimately temporary – not to mention unhealthy and generally unhelpful… and it's so sad and infuriating that MF, as a body image ambassador, would promote this. Constantly. The way that she immediately took all criticism after the gainers post as a direct criticism of her as a person (rather than what she said and did) screams deep insecurity and unease with herself as a person. If she wasn't in a position requiring responsibility and integrity, I would feel sorry for her. But she needs to step up and develop a healthier understanding of body image, or step down from her position.

I love your post KathleenJoy. But I dont think that Mia is the type of person that should be on the National Body Image Advisory Group. Surely we want someone as Chair of that committee that already gets it? There are 100's of people out there that could do such a great job in that position. Shes not the person I want to lead us in our Body Image strategies in the near future. She needs to go away, think about what this is about, and then perhaps in a number of years if she gets it then, she could potentially be the Chair again. I just think this is too important an issue for someone to be experimenting their way through it.

I agree with you! but because we probably can't influence who is on the National Body Image Advisory Group, I haven't speculated on “what if” the make up of the group was different. I think it's important we influence who is in on it now, and continue to challenge Mia.

I don't think the National Body Image Advisory Group is going to impact on my life or the way I feel about my body. I mostly ignore its existence until someone brings one of Mia's MamaMia posts to my attention and I link the two (it's impossible not to) and get my rant on!

Your closing “I just think this is too important an issue for someone to be experimenting their way through it.” is especially poignant.

Natalie, I think you are awesome.

That is a pretty lame comment I know, but I can't think of anything more eloquent right now.

xox

I agree with 99% of this comment. It completely drove me crazy when Mia played the victim and could not look at her actions critically.

The one thing I don't understand is why Kate Ellis wearing a leather dress and killer heels disqualifies her from speaking about body image.

I have absolutely no problem with the concept of Frock Watch. From my perspective, it's a chance to look at some pretty fashion in the same way as I look at Wardrobe Remix to see daily style. However, I do find the negative comments that people leave on Frock Watch posts to be disheartening. Yet, to be fair, people also leave a lot of positive comments as well.

I don't think Mia posts Frock Watch to be snarky, and it's a shame that some people use these posts to vent their negativity. Perhaps this needs to be better moderated.

Hi Heather and Definatalie – I love this post and the point you are making, you know the frockwatch thing hasn't sat right with me for that reason, you voiced it well – I feel another post coming on.

This is fantastic – apparently Mia bashing is all the rave. Because that's not judgemental or anything.

Let's gather comments and get as many people as we can to say negative things about one woman and then call ourselves wonderful people because we don't judge others. And then maybe we wont have fat bashers – just Mia bashers but that's okay because she's not one of us

Please read the post again. I don't think you understand what's going on here.

I'm not quite sure how this is “Mia bashing”? To me this is an incredibly reasonable and sensible post that expresses an opinion about how types of posts like 'frock watch' or 'best and worst dressed' are exceptionally harmful for women.

What they do Anna is they create a social norm about what is 'acceptable', 'appropriate' or 'beautiful' by comparing them to what is deemed 'ugly' 'inappropriate' or 'unacceptable'. If this was just about celebrating a diverse range of styles and beauties that is terrific. But is the comparative angle – that somehow one is better than the other that makes a mockery of the concept of 'body image' and beauty acceptance.

And these types of posts are particularly offensive and problematic when they come from the Chair of the National Body Image Taskforce. Just like when that same Chair writes a 'freak out' post about gaining 11 kgs on an overseas holiday as a young adult.

But she does have a best/worst dressed section, surely you can't deny that will encourage negative commenting?

Wow, that is a great, well written post. Well done. You have put into words what a lot of people have been thinking for a while.

This sort of thing is something I used to engage in on the regular even while identifying as a feminist — until reading books like “Screw Inner Beauty” and surrounding myself with people who refuse to engage in demeaning other people — whether through their fashion choices or whatever choices they make challenged my previously held viewpoints.

I just don't get people who get extremely defensive (as there no doubt is a post coming up from her that will be along those lines) when challenged about stuff like this. I like being made to think about preconceptions. I like to know if what I'm writing or saying is offending someone. I feel, it's our duty, as women, as people, to constantly question. It's not just fashion, it's not just harmless commentary. Especially coming from someone who proclaims to be body positive and women positive.

I agree that the best/worst section encourages negative commenting, but don't think that applies to Frock Watch.

On review, I have to agree with your point about Minister Ellis' clothes. That's out of line.

Ms Freedman's intentions here don't count for anything if she's not taking a strong stance on moderating the body and fashion bashing. Perhaps that's what needed here if the Frock Watch portion is to remain. The thing is that women being hyper critical towards other women is the norm, and that's what most women fall back on. A body image advocate should educate her readers that this is damaging behaviour.

You don't think your post is looking for snarky comments? You don;'t think you and your friends sending offensive tweets is snarky? You think you can be negative about thin people just because you are believe in Fat Acceptance?

How about accepting that fashion is just that – fashion. Not about your twisted way of seeing the world as negative. They are pictures of models showing the latest fashion.

Tell me how is someone showing you the latest fashion being negative about body image? If you put up pictures of models on your website is that okay.

Let's call for the closure of Vogue and Cleo and Cosmo and Madison. While we are about it why don't we ban fashion shows and close the section in the newspapers that shows what's in fashion? Oh and the Fashion Channel on Foxtel? Burn it

I'm confused. I've seen no offensive tweets? Nor have I seen anyone be negative about thin people — body bashing is body bashing, no matter the size of the person.

Fashion? Not just fashion. It's never 'just' fashion.

This is not snark. It is critical literacy. It is feminism. I'm not sure where the offense is in our tweets either, however I welcome links and specific citations. Negativity about thin people? Does not exist here. While thin people do enjoy thin privilege, it doesn't make sense for fat activists to bash them because we are all fighting against conditioning that puts our bodies under a critical light.

I really think you're heading way off track with this first paragraph, and completely derailing the argument beyond that.

I don't think you've read the post at all Anna. and nothing offensive has been written.

I couldn't agree more. As I have gotten older I have started making an effort not to make snarky comments about other women and I really feel that making myself accountable for this negativity has made the way I view myself more positive too.

It has this amazing flow on effect and it's something I am really embracing.

Anna, this post is so much more than snark. Concerns about the direction of the Body Image Advisory Group are so much bigger than snark.

Your sarcasm, unfounded accusations and attacks are rather, um, snarky though.

[...] some context: yesterday, Natalie posted this great piece up at Definatalie.com. Go read it, she’s so [...]

I was referring to this…
http://melindatankardreist.com.au/2010/04/kate-…
which in my opinion is problematic. How does Kate Ellis posing in a leather dress and high heels raise awareness about the complex issues surrounding body image? Not a personal comment about what Ellis wears.

[...] stuff that doesn’t really mesh with the things I love to talk about now. Like how I think criticising other people’s fashion choices is a hurtful thing, but… wasn’t I the girl who set up a community on the internet where people could say [...]

Sure you've already seen this…

http://www.mamamia.com.au/weblog/2010/06/mia-fr…

Her last 3 words sum her 'response' up perfectly…

I was referring to the Grazia issue in which Kate Ellis posed in a leather dress and high heels in an effort to raise awareness about body image. It does not disqualify her from speaking about body image but it again, cast doubt in my mind about her ability to understand the issue.

Hmmm… she's deleted the page now, but I saved it (just in case – call me paranoid!!) She reposted your blog on her frockwatch, and added the following comments (cut and paste – let me know if you want me to send you the web page in it's entirety);

“We have frockwatch so we can see fashion, stay on trend, appreciate beauty and creativity. We also learn what is happening in a world other than ours – it opens up our creative eyes. Just like we want to see celebrity to escape – to imagine a different life, sometimes to laugh at the absurd and sometime to revel in the mystique.

Saying having Frockwatch is inviting snark is like saying showing a movie is inviting criticism of the actors or the screenwriter /producer/director whatever. Reading a book is inviting criticism of the author….Looking at beautiful homes is inviting criticism of the architect or decorator

Pure fucking tripe!”

Wow. Again, completely missed the point.
Anyone can see that Natalie loves fashion. What she doesn't love is it being framed as a competiton between 'best and worst dressed', or being presented as a free-for-all for negative commentary on bodies. (Lots of the comments clearly don't concentrate on frocks but instead talk about plastic bodies, skinny legs, inappropriate cleavage etc.) How is that appreciating beauty or creativity? *headdesk*

This is what frustrates me, why can't she take the critcism as a moment to reflect and re-brand frockwatch with a focus on the fashion and ask people to refrain from negative comments about other women's bodies. Argh.
p.s. I can't see her any of her posts at all atm.

Hi Natalie – loved this post and agree with you 100%

I too used to participate in the snark – not alot but I'm guilty … up until about a year ago, and and I agree with you completely when you say ….

Do you want to know something? My life has changed. Cutting out most of the snark on other women has been revolutionary for my self esteem and my body image.

My life has changed too, my self esteem, my willingness to accept other for who they are, my outlook on life in general has become so much more positive. I would much rather pay someone a compliment than critique their choices …

I have commented many times on Frockwatch in the past, but not for a long time now, the nastiness just got under my skin too much …

Congratulations on the post, hope it gets the positive attention that it deserves.

Steph x

The official explanation of the disappearing post is:

“Our site crashed this morning. A couple of times.

A draft posted that had not been viewed by Mia. It was simply the contents of a blog written about Frockwatch. It also included the wording from an email that Mia had received in response to the blog. No part of the draft post had been written by Mia so when we saw that it had posted in error we took it down.

Mia’s response to Natalie’s Frockwatch concerns can be seen in the MTV frockwatch comments

Hope that clarifies things
x”

You are awesome Natalie! Sorry, I can't be more eloquent at the moment, but that pretty much sums up what I wanted to say :D

“A draft posted that had not been viewed by Mia. It was simply the contents of a blog written about Frockwatch. It also included the wording from an email that Mia had received in response to the blog. No part of the draft post had been written by Mia so when we saw that it had posted in error we took it down.”

I don't get that at all. “Someone” wrote a draft post in their admin with the contents of this blog and an email that Mia received and then published it without anyone knowing? How weird is that? She didn't write it or read it?

I'm failing to understand how Frock Watch is a problem. Believe me, when it comes to body issues, I've had my fair share (or perhaps more, considering that I was told my dying from anorexia was not a possibility, but a certainty…five years later, here I am).

Yes, it is important to re-define feminine ideals and identity: but does that mean going against everything already established? When did feminism become about denial? We all have different tastes in clothing, and not being able to share those for fear of being “anti-feminist” is more of a problem than the discussion itself.

To quote from Linda Seidel: “the patterns we find are, of course, determined by the patterns we seek.” I think there's only a problem here because you're looking for one. If you want to see frock watch as a communal female activity, enjoying and discussing clothes, you will. If you want to see it as anti-feminist and degrading, you will.

and now she has a post about plastic surgery, yet again encouraging people to tell an 18 year old girl how stupid and selfish she is for wanting to have plastic surgery.

I smell a rat. Her comment in response to Natalie that I read this morning (which, incidentally, is polite and reasonable) includes some of the wording of the deleted 'email from someone else'. So…there's a person ghost-writing her comments now? Or is this a way to pretend she didn't say 'load of fucking tripe' when she in fact did?

After all the revisions that went on at that site over the Gainer controversy, I'm afraid I'm disinclined to take the email story at face value. Call me a cynic.

Gosh what is this deleted email business? There is too much shitfuckery going on and I just wish we could have a proper bloody conversation without all this “deleted conversation”, “drafts published in error” bullcrap!

Mia Freedman, you're being evasive and that's really uncool.

Body autonomy – too hard to understand :(

I'm sorry you've dealt with body issues, it's really tough awful business and super personal. However, just because problematic issues aren't apparent to one person, doesn't mean they are erased across the board. Body snark affects people in different ways, and for a lot of women it contributes to damaging self talk.

The idea that I am looking for problems is highly offensive and problematic and tells me that you've not much experience with a feminist dialogue. Critiquing damaging content published and moderated by a BODY IMAGE AUTHORITY is not looking for problems – it's pointing them out so that things can be changed. So that we can correct this damaging crap and move on to the next thing.

To me it is the fact that frockwatch and other similar things don't restrict themselves to just 'That is a great dress' or 'I'm not keen on those clashing lime green and pink tones' they often end up including comments like 'Her breasts look pretty fake' 'What terrible skin tone' 'OMG she has lost/gained so much weight' and so on. Just under Mia's response to Natalie on frock watch is a comment saying 'Katy Perry looks like she is made of plastic' Nuff said.

Alright. Here's my problem with Frock Watch. From one picture of Nicole Kidman:

“The Grand Canyon in between her flotation devices is a DEAD giveaway. I’m dying….I die. GROSS.”
“Think Nicole looks very booby but the bones sticking out of her breastplate make me wanna puke, eat some food Nicole!”
“Nicole Kidman scares me.”
“yuck yuck yuck!”
“How can Nicole look at herself and think “Yes I look great, with my breasts under my arm pits”.”
“I agree – the boobs are good the skeletal frame sticking out? Not too good!”

You don't need to be going in with a negative attitude to find women pouring body snark onto other women. This is not just discussing fashion, this is putting someone down based on their appearance. That is massively anti-feminist.

To make it a bit clearer, one of my fashion gripes is high heels. If I was discussing it in terms of fashion, I would say “I hate high heels. I find them completely torturous. An outfit can be perfect without subjecting oneself to heels.” If I was snarking in the style of commenters on Frock Watch, I would say “OMG look at that girl wearing heels! How can she go outside like that? She walks like a hippo on stilts.” PLEASE tell me you can see the difference.

And frankly, if all social movements were reluctant to about “[go] against everything already established” we'd never make any progress.

I'm in the U.S., so I'm not familiar with Mia Freedman, but having just read through some of her remarks, and your post, I have to say, making nasty remarks about women's size – whether that is size 0 or 32 is the very opposite of promoting healthy body image — healthy body image comes from being healthy (according to a real doctor, not a tv show or a trainer at the gym) and liking yourself – period.

Oh come ON TRS!!!!
I read your blog and I remember very clearly how hideously bitchy you were towards some woman who had an affair with Sandra Bullock's husband (no idea the name as my care factor is zero) – you went on and on about her tattoos and her skankiness etc etc etc… it was AWFUL!
Plus unless I am living in a bizarro parallel universe, YOU HAVE YOUR OWN FROCKWATCH ON YOUR SITE!
I have no problems with what you or anyone else does, it's just the utter hypocrisy that gets to me.

Abby, Spilt Milk

I work for Mia. I took Natalie's blog post and put it in drafts in the backend of Mamamia in case Mia wanted to write about it.

I also put in the contents of the email she received in relation to that post. I was just gathering research (my job) and I put it all in drafts. Basically it was everything that I had surrounding that issue at the time (bar tweets and the snarky bingo card).

There is nothing sinister going on at all. Mia did not want the post published as she had not written it, in fact I had created it – she had not even read it as a post. She had read the blog and the email but it was not her intention to publish them.

The post was published in error when the site crashed and we took every measure we could to retract that because it was not Mia's writing.

Mia's response remains in the comment to Natalie on Frockwatch

Thanks for taking the time to read this and for understanding that it was my cutting and pasting that you saw appear today – not Mia's words and not mine. I will protect the privacy of the person who sent in the email, but I can guarantee it was not Mia.

Regards
Lana

hi natalie,

first i want to say that i'm a fan of your blog, artwork and your fatshions. i think this post in particular is one of your best. i remember enjoying your posts/comments at the fatshionista community (back when i used to follow it) and recently discovered your blog/twitter through marianne of 'the rotund'.

anyways, i also have a question. in this post you say:

“I decided to comment this time, because I am particularly sensitive about fashion and body snark. I used to participate in it myself. I’m not perfect. When I read chapter ten in Kate Harding and Marianne Kirby’s book, Screw Inner Beauty called “Stop Judging Other Women” I resolved to cut that shit out.”

and i'm wondering if you could comment how that fits in with you still being a moderator over at the unfatshionista community?

i hope it doesn't seem like i'm merely trying to stir up shit with this question. i'm genuinely curious because it just doesn't add up to me. unfatshionista seems to be the very same “shit” you've resolved to cut out and i'm interested to hear more on your feelings about it.

thanks,
mel

I have actually been asked this just recently, and wrote a long reflection on the huge mindshift I have had in the last year or so. It's important to recognise that people can change their minds, and that's what I have done. I'm almost certain that I will be writing a post on this public blog, because I know a few people who are still confused about my involvement with that community and how it informs where I stand now.

I won't deny what I used to say, or what I used to be involved in. That kind of snark is part of the shit I cut out, and I remain a mod in name only now and only involve myself as a kind of intermediary. Lots of the time I find the content upsetting and I will step up and say so. I don't really believe in censorship, and find that the best way to counteract unhelpful stuff is by talking about it, and that's why I haven't completely severed ties with the unfats community.

It may seem like I'm being a bit hypocritical, but if you factor in my passion for discussion and moderation it makes my decision make more sense. Anyone could use that information against me, and if they don't listen to my reasoning it's a pretty huge thing that can be used in support of snark. It's just not that simple. I prefer to act in the grey area and engage in hard discussions rather than act in black and white.

I prefer to be direct and honest and own my previous behaviour. I'm Natalie, and I'm an ex-fashion snarker. I think it's a powerful thing to realise when you've been engaging in negative stuff, and I'm proud of the effort I've made to engage in feminist discussion and unlearn so much of my hurtful and unhelpful behaviour.

Hi Rachel,

Yes that's right I did post something about Bombshell McGee on my blog – I didn't go on and on about her skankiness and her tattoo's – in fact I didn't even mention her tattoo's – because I was commenting on her behaviour (so you're a little bit off base there). I'm happy for anyone to look at that post – I struck out the offensive words and reworded it when my slightly emotional rant was brought to my attention and besides, that's kind of old news now Rachel.

I don't have Frockwatch … I occasionally post pictures of celeb event fashion and ask commenters to comment on what they like … if there were ever any snarky nasty comments (which there aren't) I would delete them.

Besides, I'm not the Chair of the National Body Image Advisory Board – so based on that I think Mia is slightly more accountable than I am.

If you would like to discuss this further I invite you to email me therealsydney@live.com.au rather than hijack Natalie's post.

Thanks for the clarification Lana.
It is unfortunate that these things crop up and require clarifying. I am not, by nature, a cynical person. But my past observations of how things changed without notice at Mamamia as well as the way in which I was attacked and maligned there recently made me more wary than usual. I'd also like to note that the email/draft quoted here by June IS quoted in part by Mia in her comment to Natalie, so if she didn't write that draft post she's borrowing from it in any case. It did certainly make it look as though the draft was her writing as well. In pointing that out, I don't mean to create animosity. I just think that clarity and openness is vitally important here if any kind of meaningful discussion is to take place.

thanks for your thoughtful (and quick!) reply. now i can stop wondering about the whole unfats thing. heh.

but seriously, i really respect that you're owning your previous behaviour – that is not always an easy thing to do.

mel

Definitalie,
I am being neither evasive nor any of the other things I've been accused of on this post.
You can put the conspiracy theories on ice, the post was published in error, other posts were lost and that's just some of the tech hell we've been in today.
First world problems. Whatever.

Have been meaning to come here since last night and let you know I posted a considered and lengthy response to the comment you left on Frockwatch here:
http://www.mamamia.com.au/weblog/2010/06/mtv-mo…

I had at one time thought I might do a whole post on it but did the response instead.

All the best.

You're a classy lady.

And I think that adds even more weight to what you're saying in this post. It doesn't hurt to change, change is where growth comes from. There is an opportunity here for Mia Freedman to make a serious difference if she's prepared to make some changes. We know her fans will follow her lead.

“That's an issue we've been working really hard on, and if by wearing an outfit I probably wouldn't ordinarily choose I can help fashion magazines to promote a healthy body image and raise awareness amongst their readers, that must be a good thing.”

OK, I agree with you, that was daft.

I've never read frockwatch so I can't really comment on the nark factor. But I completely relate to what you are saying. I was one of *those* people who would mock others for muffin tops etc in my ill-informed youth. I didn't think about how clothes aren't made properly or the fact that I might have been talking about someone (like myself) who has had a baby, whose body has changed, who is putting every spare dollar into paying off debt so that our family is in a better position and possibly can't afford new clothes right now. It's sad to me that I had to experience it first hand before I 'got it'.

I'm running a little late coming to this discussion, but I think you're entirely right, Natalie. I did think, though, that perhaps one way of demonstrating to Mia that the whole Frock Watch thing is problematic is to complain (via that 'moderate' button) about everything that is body-hating in relation to a single post. I suspect that most people here would be happy to participate in demonstrating how much body policing is going on in relation to Frock Watch? And we'd probably only have to do it in relation to one post in order to make the point clearly… Although I just scanned through some of the comments on the MTV thread and wow – I'd be committing to a pile of emails, that's for sure!!

In the end, this is only a minor protest – I *do* get how much it demonstrates that Mia just doesn't get what's at stake. But nonetheless…

I do wonder how Frock Watch, run without a Best/Worst category, and excluding *every* moment of negative commentary, might function. I like the idea of positive feedback, I guess, and I agree with the commenter who said that coming up with positive stuff about others' fashions and stuff can help combat body negativity; at the same time, I wonder about whether it's all part and parcel of the same thing (which I think might be your concern about unfatshionista modding?)

i've been pondering this issue ever since i stumbled upon Natalie's blog a few weeks ago, and i used to wonder the same thing – why would people take offence at posts that are about FASHION and not BODIES?

but as Kat says below, it's not so much about the intention of the posts, it's more about the fact that people's criticism of fashion often flows into criticism of bodies. and it is this (i think) which Natalie has a problem with. it is NOT FAIR, even if someone is a celebrity and going to an awards night, to say something rude or hurtful about their body/appearance… and the damage is not limited to their reputations, it flows down into the everywoman's sense of self-worth.

e.g. if i see a negative comment on Frock Watch about someone's red hair, and i have red hair myself, it might make me feel bad. or if i don't have red hair, it might make me think i'm superior because i don't have red hair! does that make sense?

personally i hardly ever read fashion magazines or blogs (Frock Watch included) although i will every now and then, and sometimes i'll make an innocuous comment. but i think from now on i'll be trying to be more conscious about my viewing of posts like Frock Watch – i don't really want to participate in anything that promotes negative commentary on people's bodies.

But what about those of us who aren't healthy, Shayna? I feel there is judgement implicit in your statement that healthy body image comes from being healthy as deemed by a doctor. I am not healthy. But that does not mean that I cannot have a positive body image.

I personally feel that the focus on being “healthy” and fat is just a way to argue against ignorant people who think that thin = healthy and fat = unhealthy. It tends to leave those of us who are not healthy feeling judged and derided by people who are supposed to be our allies.

I am not less than because I am ill, and I am not unable to have positive body image because I am ill.

Incidentally, Mia's response got me 6 squares on the bingo card! No bingo, though. Sadface.

she looks pretty confident walking across the track in those heels…it shouldn't at all matter the material (leather in this case) that she is wearing. the dress is not revealing inappropriate amounts of skin…though as a tall woman, she has the eternal problem of the knee length never quite getting to the knee.
if you are comfortable in your own skin and honestly comfortable in the clothes/outfit that you are wearing, then you are going to look knock-out…doesn't matter your shape.

Also, some people just don't care about things like muffin top. I have quite a few items of clothing that highlight my fat that I know women have commented negatively on (they whisper to their friends right in front of me). It's not because the clothes aren't made properly or I have better things to do – I wore those clothes because I like how they cling to my fat.

Linda Seidel is an art historian, that quote is taken from her article about the Arnolfini Portrait having been read as a marriage portrait, whereas she considers other readings to be available.

Lana, did you not end the now deleted post with “what fucking tripe”?

This is really REALLY upsetting and uncool.

Your response was dismissive and upsetting, as was the “what fucking tripe” at the end of the deleted post.

You know what June, I totally didn't see the “fucking tripe” part until someone on another blog mentioned it.

Gah. Upsetting.

How about this one:

“Hi Natalie.
Unfortunately, as Lana explained, we had some technical difficulties. I did not, and would not, call the work of a fellow body image advocate a load of 'fucking tripe'. The person who said that does not represent my views but I do take responsibility for what appears on my own site, so I apologise for any hurt caused. Whilst I don't agree with all of your arguments, I can see that you are passionate about body acceptance. I am passionate about this too, so I will certainly take some time to think over your criticisms. Even though I am not able to take everyone's views on board all of the time, I do welcome considered feedback from other feminist/body image bloggers. In the mean time, I have posted a response to your comment on my blog.
All the best.”

Oh, if only!
(Is this kind of response really far, far too much to ask for? Because it feels like it shouldn't be.)

But how does doing that in any way raise the issue of body image? I agree, she looks great although I disagree that she looks confident – I think she looks uncomfortable. Surely there are better ways to address this issue in the mainstream media than this?

“I will protect the privacy of the person who sent in the email, but I can guarantee it was not Mia.”
If that is correct that it wasn't Mia then my next best guess is that it was Kerri Sackville who wrote that. Mind you, if someone else wrote it, Mia copied a few chunks out of it in her response. She just thought better of the “what fucking tripe” bit. But whoops, someone published it.

I enjoyed this post for many reasons. Mostly because I've snarked and I've been snarked at. And someone calling the whole thing out and breaking it down does make you reassess.
I think as well it's something many of us are taught by other females around us. Even from a young age. It can almost seem like a marking of territory or defending not only ones presence but also a way to justify one is better than someone else. Teenage girls for instance are a prime example of 'snark sharks', and its almost the norm to pick on someone who has opposing dress sense to the group, or a different way to carry themselves. And quite normal for snarks to travel in packs. It can almost be seen as a sense of belonging.
It sounds far fetched but I've always supported the fact that in some high schools the effects of embracing all without malice is taught.
The trashing of Celebs – often turns out to be jealousy based and that's a whole new can of worms.
And less we forget some men can be snarks too; straight and gay, it's not just a practice used by women to make themselves feel better. Many men also do this to other men and to women. Great post! Vx

Hoorah! Why can't we all just stop being mean to each other and to ourselves!?
Love your blog :o)

I think the thing is that these are not all 'equivalent' readings of a painting. Someone is saying that their experience of Frock Watch is as snarky, and as damaging to their experience of their own body. Others are agreeing. You are saying that this perspective is invalid because you like Frock Watch? I tend to think that if there are two readings, and someone is telling you that the way they experience something is as damaging, that damage matters more than whatever cheap thrills you might get from participating in Frock Watch.

And that's quite aside from Mia Freedman, allegedly supporting positive body image, refusing to believe other women when they TELL her that Frock Watch encourages an attitude towards bodies in general – our own, and others – that is damaging. I mean – if you've decided your commitment is to positive body image, and others tell you you're doing a thing that undermines that, don't you… I dunno, rethink it?

Missed the whole Mia blog post thing I will have to go check it out. Personally I find Mia a bit feminist lite. But that appears the fashion these days.

I love the blog post lots of great points that really got me reflecting. Found this blog through the Helen Razer article who as always nails it.

I will be back to read more

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Look into Mia’s upbringing. Her father is one of the richest men in Australia. Vaucluse, the boats, the cars etc.
Mia has a live in nanny, so don’t think she should pretend to understand the rest of us – really has no idea.

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